I Keep Bleeding Love. Help! Options

[Blade'sMama]

I'll apologize in advance if this post is lengthy but will try to keep it to the point and simple. I have been on the boards mostly for digestive troubles so I have put Blade's behavior issues on the backburner as far as this forum being concerned because I was hoping to get a handle on this myself and with obedience training.

Background: Blade is 7 months old. He is an outside dog during the day mostly (coming in from time to time to his quarters in the basement) and he is strictly inside at night. He lives with myself, my husband, 2 daughters, 11 and 6 and a 14 yo Pitt Bull/Lab mix who can't see or hear him. He has always seemed aggressive to me ever since the beginning but others told me he was just playing. I believe he has really had no bite inhibition training from his mother and littermates resulting in him being very mouth oriented. Through the summer I was covered in scratches from his "puppy biting" that seemed to really only happen to me. As time has gone on, the adult teeth grew and I am still the brunt of his biting. He bites the leash when we are walking, shaking it violently. He bites my rubber boots usually going through them and sometimes 2 pairs of pants to leave bruises. I cannot kneel down near him or he will jump on my back and growl at me. Just yesterday I slipped and landed in the snow near him and he came on my back and bit at my head (not drawing blood thankfully because I had a hat on). He does have some food aggression too. This only happens to me. He does not act this way with other people or with my family. He is a little bit too bitey with the kids when he is excited sometimes but it is the play kind, not the aggressive kind. There is clearly a difference. This dog is the world's sweetest Malamute 90% of the time. But sometimes towards me, he turns like Jekyl and Hyde the other 10%.

What I have tried: I have done 16 weeks of basic obedience training with Blade. He knows the commands. I use the treat training method. He does great most of the time, but he is a stubborn malamute like all are. I have done all but 2 of the tips in Doris' alpha training for the last 5 months. With the exception of the move command, to teach him to stay out of my way. Will work on that. And for obvious reasons, the tether option because I would be bitten too much to be able to handle that. I eat before him. I put my hands in his foods and make him eat out of them. I use a firm, low voice and have tried different ways of ejecting it. I put him in a sit stay once I can get him to quit biting me for a "time out" and afterwards, he goes right back to biting me. I never, ever play tug of war nor is anyone else allowed. I have put him down in a submissive position, he pretends to give up and comes right back to biting me.

He is for the most part great with my husband. He'll act up a bit with the leash biting, etc, but never bites at him or growls at him. Same with the kids. If he is really excited he goes into the bite/play mode and I can't make him understand thats not play. We use toys to deter it, but nothing works.

I have found a trainer that spent an hour with myself and Blade the other day. He said he saw no signs of aggression in this dog. Everyone was going crazy over him and just kept telling me he must be playing but this is clearly not playing!!! It is pure aggression! He is going to work with me to try and solve the problem, get to the bottom of it. I hope it works. I realize my husband is alpha and it seems the kids are second, Blade and I are fighting for third??

Please, please help me! I spend so much time working with and loving this dog. Its mentally exhausting at times to be the brunt of his outlashes. We even have our own song, "Keep Bleeding Love". I love him so much and don't know what I would do without him but I need to gain control. Hit me with your wisdom everyone!

[doris]

Hi,
There have been a few of us who have gone through different levels of this. Yes, it is mainly a dominance thing, although some of the biting can also be his way of getting out of obeying. Kodiak was good for that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Here are my suggestions.

Get a bottle (or two or three) or Bitter Apple Spray from the pet store. It is usually in the grooming section and his called a chew deterrent. Any time he bites you, spritz a squirt in the side of his mouth with a "No Bite" command. You don't have to touch him otherwise. If he is not on-leash, then turn and walk away after you spray him. If he is on-leash, just stand quietly for a minute or two until he finishes spitting and then resume what you were doing like nothing happened. If he is biting on the leash, spray down the leash. Same for your boots, pants, even your hands and arms. Wait for him to react to the taste and then give the "No Bite" command. You want him to connect the nasty taste with the correction so he understands what you are correcting. Yes, he will drool, foam at the mouth, slobber, shake his head, etc. Bitter Apple is non-toxic (we all had to taste it in puppy class) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . Unless Blade is one of the few Mals who enjoy the taste, it shouldn't take long for him to at least stop biting when you have the bottle close by. I got a couple of the small 4 oz bottles and put one on the coffee table, one in the kitchen, and carried one in my back pocket. No, this won't totally fix the problem of Blade seeing you as equal or lower, but it will stop the biting while you work on training.

When you have him on a leash and he starts biting, see if you can step on the leash to pull him into a down position. You can use the "No Bite" or "Down" command. If you can step on the leash, then pull the handle end upward until his collar is close to your foot and he is in a down position. You want to hold him in a down until he settles, then let him up and immediately give him a sit command and praise/treat him. You want to try to redirect him from acting crazy to obeying.

I understand your frustration. Continue with your training, be consistent with the bite corrections, and try to give Blade as much positive exercise as you can. Be happy he is mostly submissive with everyone else. It would be a lot harder to correct if he acted this way with everyone. And while it isn't a compliment right now, part of the reason he is doing this is because he considers you his closest buddy. Just hang in there and you'll be able to hang out together without you ending up bruised. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Robin G]

hi there, it can be very frustrating !

In our case with a very stroppy malamute - first thing i did was neuter him ! - no way was he keeping those crown jewlels any longer while i had spent the first few months covered in bruises and nips. and almost every dog in the street ran, when they saw him heading their way !

In the dogs mind my partner was alpha, (yes he would act up a bit with him but was easy to get under control and be reminded of his position) - next in the pack was the dog ! - and according to that dog, i came last.

my tips are :

Do you carry strong body language when you are near the dog ? Make sure you feel confident, stand tall, shoulders back - think alpha, and "peruse the world around you"........... ? Make eye contact when giving a command, and hold it until he turns away - (maybe he will maybe he won't ??). Do you have an alpha "voice" - none of this cuchy cuchy who's mama's baby, talk.

Maybe turning your back on him and ignoring him, in some situations to make him a lower status might help too (i think i remember a few times the dog turned his own back on me !! when i did that though)

does he playfight and nip with the children ? If so then he might be vying for a position above them too - so while he is going through a testing phase then "no human contact games allowed". No winding him up and if he trys to start a rough play game, then get the kids to stand up, ignore him, and walk away, or else if standing just walk away after giving a "no" or "off" command or something. they can walk into another room, - anything just to let the dog know it's not acceptable.

Offering toys to diffuse the situation maybe makes him think yay, i nip at them and they give me toys, and a game..........

keep going, it is worth it ! - after those rough years we had with Alaska he grew into our beautiful gentle giant.

[Blade'sMama]

Thanks for the tips!

First off I was pretty tired when I made the first post. I neglected to include Blade has been neutered. (No difference in his behavior/dominancy, etc.)

I have tried Bitter Apple to spray down the leash and my boots, clothing. I use it every time. He stays away after first spraying it, but minutes later on the walk he is back at me. I haven't ever sprayed it in his mouth though. I will definitely try that today. He does seem to be one of those stubborn Malamutes that doesn't care what thinks taste like, lol.

As far as body language goes. I maintain a strong stance. I always use eye contact. Its so frustrating!

I will try the stepping on the leash trick to get him down if I can manage it without falling on my butt in the process with all of the ice and snow here! Sounds like a good one to try.

I'm so afraid we can't get this under control and he ends up not being able to be trusted with others or kids coming into the yard. I will do anything to have a well rounded dog.

[Patty & Bill]

I bumped up a few biting posts for you. Seems our Mallies are quite the chompers!

For me, I would make a loud noise, say "ah ah ah: REAL short and loud, either leave the room or confine the dog someplace where he can't play.

Exercise exercise exercise him till he's pooped.

Are you the one to do the obedience class? What happens if he gets bity and you leashe him and go through some basic commands and then reward him? That's probably what I would try to do.

[Blade'sMama]

I bumped up a few biting posts for you. Seems our Mallies are quite the chompers!

For me, I would make a loud noise, say "ah ah ah: REAL short and loud, either leave the room or confine the dog someplace where he can't play.

Exercise exercise exercise him till he's pooped.

Are you the one to do the obedience class? What happens if he gets bity and you leashe him and go through some basic commands and then reward him? That's probably what I would try to do.

Yep I have tried all kinds of sounds. The No Bite command. The ah, ah! Even the Cesar MIlan shhhh!

Since its winter, which I hate, I usually get in about 1.5 miles in the morning and almost 1 mile in the evening for him. Usually a combo of walking/running. He also gets some play time in the afternoon with playing ball or just some good training. Sit/stays, Down/stays, Watch me. Heel. Stand.

If I can catch him before he gets too far gone in the biting relentlessly, I can sometimes pull him out of it with a command and a treat. Probably only 40% of the time though.

I will check the biting posts. Thanks so much for your insight!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[skypackmals]

We live with a very dominant male....one who exhibits aggression when pushed. One who will enforce his will if he really wants too. That is how it used to be at least, and more so with me than my husband. ...And I was the one who was busting my ass working with him every single day/weekend/morning/night....etc etc etc

We have done obedience every week since he was 7 weeks old. It was the best move for this dog. Since we ingrained the training into his temperament and behavior... he, without question, sits and downs for every meal, for all treats(which are occasional)....and if he exhibits aggression towards us...he downs, and now, he will roll over belly up (sometimes mockingly the little punk.)

Currently, he has been an angel. Wasn't always this way though, and he isn't even two yet, so he will certainly have another set-back and we are always ready.

When Blade is "puppy biting" you, how do you discipline him for it? If he's mocking you when you DO discipline him, that means he's choosing not to listen to you, he doesn't think you mean business. If he were tired, he may not put up such a front. I have been working (and I mean WORKING) our boy for a few months now, and he is MUCH more manageable these days, and I accredit it to his 2 hour bike runs on the trail every weekend, and hour bike runs on Mondays and Fridays. He is exhausted and HAPPY and fulFILLED...
Blade may need to be put to work, but by YOU. Of course, harnessing a dog that's dominant aggressive can also be a challenge...but with treats, it's can be done!
And remember, winter is mushing season for these dogs, you may be cold, but he is in his element!

When he is walking and goes to grab the leash, maybe try holding the leash up and away from his mouth (even if he's jumping to get at it) and tell him "NO"...don't let him have it, but keep moving forward. Have him "heel" as well, which you may already do. Don't let him walk up ahead of you. And don't let him have the leash! He is acting out and it's mentally unhealthy...

I loved Montag too, adored him, WISHED I could just squeeze his neck and kiss his muzzle like I do with my other dogs. But no way in hell would he let me do that....SO....at one point, I just stopped seeing him as a pet. ...and started seeing him as a working dog. After all, it's what he enjoyed the most, it's what his genetics tell him to do.....
For a good while, he did not get affection or direct attention from me. Again, I was still the one who did everything (feeding, walking, training etc etc) But I was emotion-less. I think it was a personal battle I felt I had lost. I quit trying to love him as the pet I wanted him to be and started seeing him as the confident, intelligent, strong willed dog he was. A true working dog.
After taking him out for long runs repeatedly (harnessed, bikejore), we developed a relationship through working. On the trail, I need him stop, go right, go left, wait, easy....on and on and on....and many times it was after I had either busted, or come close (lol), so I was making the commands strongly and not tolerating anything but obedience....

so, that has gone on all winter, and we now have an understanding...I haven't had any problems with him in awhile. I now love on him, and he enjoys it. He actually enjoys ME and respects me...

We have come a long way...but it's been a hard road. I know it's emotionally draining, but don't give up, and don't falter with him either. Blade needs to learn to respect you....if I were you, I wouldn't dote on him for awhile, just be business....if he's biting you, you correct him REPEATEDLY till he stops....even if it's an HOUR of correcting...malamutes are stubborn but will eventually give in, but you have to stay consistent and firm in what you are trying to do.

[LupineSpirit]

I noticed you said he's 7 months old. They're pretty much all little a-hats at this point and think it's all a game. Sounds like he views you as his littermate not his boss or anyone he should respect.
Sometimes it's NOTHING that helps them stop this naughty and childish behavior. When he's being good it's all good but when he acts up, play statues or simply walk away, shut the door, leave him by himself.
No eyes, no voice, no hands when he's being naughty. All input stops. This is very difficult for some folks to do because we are so voice/hand/eye oriented. They learn very quickly that if they do a certain thing it hits our "off" button just like they learn that we have "on" buttons. You just have to be totally consistent with it.
If you're shaking your finger at him telling him NO he's thinking "fingers, she wants to play!'. If you're lecturing him, stop it. He doesn't speak the language.
Less is more. Deprived of the usual responses, it's hard to find wiggle room with NO responses. When you shut off/down and he gets NO response, that's not much fun or very rewarding. People have a hard time understanding that even LOOKING at the dog can be rewarding enough (to the dog) to continue bad behavior.
Stinky hand lotion cured Cody of the hand-mouthing. Now I get a brief sniff and that's it, no more hand-washing doggyspit style.
Playing statues cured him of being overzealous at dinner time. Whenever he was sitting still I was fixing dinner but if he was moving I was a statue. Took 20 minutes to fix his dinner the first night, now it usually goes off without a hitch. He sits, I fix dinner.
You might consider trying a Halti head halter too, which has a nifty feature of turning into a muzzle very quickly and effectively. The Gentle Leader doesn't so be sure you go for Halti.
Good luck and don't give up. If nothing else, time is on your side as they seem to gentle down around 18-24 months and grow up somewhat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Blade'sMama]

Skypackmals, thanks for the tips. It seems I can surely relate to your story. Trying to be his boss and not his littermate is mentally and physcially exhausting some days! I do agree a tired Mal is a good one. This dog does not stop! He gets the 2.5 miles DAILY plus playing. Like I just now came in from his big walk and a half hour of playing football and (his choice today) keep away. He should be at least ready to lie down for a bit, but Nooooo! LOL. I can't imagine being emotionless for long periods of time with him. How did you ever train yourself to do that? I'm glad it worked for you and who knows, I may have to try it soon. I will try your tips on the holding up the leash. I have done this some in the past but he just walks/hops on 2 hindlegs down the street going after it. If you have any info on harnessing and what it entails, please let me know thanks!

To Doris: I tried the Bitter Apple today with spraying his mouth, (not just my clothes and boots like I normally do) and it sure seemed to help a lot! Boy after a few times, if he would see me grab the bottle he would back off and even sit without being told! THANK YOU!! I was never told you could actually use it on the animal. I think that bottle is my new best buddy. I feel like I'm armed with a machine gun near him!!

LupineSpirit: I also will experiment with the nothing approach. Recently though, when I have turned my back on him and pretended to be a statue he would just bite harder to get a reaction out of me. Grrrr! Help? As for dinner time, as soon as he sees me get the bowl he starts with the shrill window breaking howls! I know he is hungry and understand it but he is so impatient, and then always wolfs down the food. He will sit and "watch me" while I am holding the bowl, ready to feed him but he will not stay still for me to put it on the floor. I have been trying for weeks. I even tried stopping him halfway to slow him down and regain control of the food, but it just makes him wolf it even faster to claim it.

I am so glad I have found this site. You all are such a wealth of resources and information. Thank you so much for your input and sharing your experiences. I am so glad I am not alone and now, today have some hope that I can get a handle on Blade's behavior.

[hammer]

About 6 months ago, Ulfur had a periot where he was trying his status, tried to be alpha over our children and probably me too. I´ll tell you what we did. We desided to ignore him for a week. No one looked at him and he got no attention. Not even my husband which Ulfur approved as alpha. If we had to let him move, we took his collar with out talking to him or looking at him and moved him. We have two dogs and we did not ignore the other one. At dinnertime we put their food into their bowles and took it with us to the table. While we are eating they are not allowed to come into the dining room but can watch us. This was new to both of them. Seeing their food at the floor beside our children while they were eating, but not allowed into the room. And they had to wait untill we had done the diches, then our children took their bowls and put it to their usual places.

At first, Ulfur acted as he didn´t care. For three days he acted as he was just looking at something behind us but not trying to get attention. But at day 5-6-7 he realy tried to make eye contact.

This was only inside the house. We walked him as usual, and used comands, letting him sit and lay down on walks. But as soon as we were inside agin he was ignored.

This was very hard, we all felt so much pity for him. And often we wanted to stop the ignoring but we knew we were doing him good.

I can tell you this week changed his behavior completely. He became the dream dog. The best ever. And we learned a lot by it.

Good luck with your dog (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Blade'sMama]

About 6 months ago, Ulfur had a periot where he was trying his status, tried to be alpha over our children and probably me too. I´ll tell you what we did. We desided to ignore him for a week. No one looked at him and he got no attention. Not even my husband which Ulfur approved as alpha. If we had to let him move, we took his collar with out talking to him or looking at him and moved him. We have two dogs and we did not ignore the other one. At dinnertime we put their food into their bowles and took it with us to the table. While we are eating they are not allowed to come into the dining room but can watch us. This was new to both of them. Seeing their food at the floor beside our children while they were eating, but not allowed into the room. And they had to wait untill we had done the diches, then our children took their bowls and put it to their usual places.

At first, Ulfur acted as he didn´t care. For three days he acted as he was just looking at something behind us but not trying to get attention. But at day 5-6-7 he realy tried to make eye contact.

This was only inside the house. We walked him as usual, and used comands, letting him sit and lay down on walks. But as soon as we were inside agin he was ignored.

This was very hard, we all felt so much pity for him. And often we wanted to stop the ignoring but we knew we were doing him good.

I can tell you this week changed his behavior completely. He became the dream dog. The best ever. And we learned a lot by it.

Good luck with your dog (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Wow that is amazing. We would surely have a hard time doing that but hey if it works, I just might have to try it! Thanks for sharing your story. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[MalsRule]

You've gotten some excellent advice

Here's 2 books I got with my first Mal puppy that really helped me understand how they send & receive communication

Dog Language: An Encyclopedia of Canine Behavior by Roger Abrantes

The Dog's Mind: Understanding Your Dog's Behavior by Bruce Fogle


Sheryl

[Neikkosmom]

Here's another bit of advice for you. Use this with EVERYTHING DORIS has told you.

If at anytime the BitterApple starts to NOT work refill that bottle with 100% Distilled White Vinegar. Put it on the Hardest Spray and aim for inside the back of his throat. Even if you have to lift his lip and squirt into his mouth or just spray past his face and give him a threatening WIFF.

Do you OWN a CRATE? Buy one, if not, and start crate training him NOW. He should be sleeping in there from now on. No freedoms unless YOU give them to him. EVER. He doesn't run any show at any time EVER. YOU do. Put him in there if he's being a pest to your other dog. If he's Being a shit. If he needs a time out Whatever. USE THE CRATE.

Make him work for everything. NILIF.

Another thing... Do you have a quiet voice? A weak voice? A very feminine sounding voice? When you address him use the deepest version of your voice you can. Think of your SERIOUS BUSINESS MOMMY VOICE without any SQUEEK, think manly (quite frankly). Squeeky is exciting to them. Quiet is weakness. Gruff and deep is serious and calming.

Your demeanor should be CALM, Precise, EXACT... Your mannerisms around him should be sure. If he jumps on You and you are squating down, jump to your feet and ROAR at the top of your lungs and turn that bottle on him and Walk purposefully towards him and tell him "NO! YOU DO NOT JUMP ON ME!" Don't hesitate at all. Don't flinch, let him know he did something absolutely WRONG and he is not EVER to do it again.

I have an 8 month old GIRL here, who is smack in her Heat. She's partially stupid right now so she's getting a smidgeon of leeway for when she forgets herself. She knows that I am the boss here and spends quite a lot of time on her back letting me know she knows that. In the last week she's jumped up twice and bitten my HANDS to get her BALL while all riled up when playing catch with me. This is clearly raging hormones to me. When it happened the first time I told her "NO Teeth" and she followed the rest of her commands to get her ball. The second time it happened I turned and stomped and used my nasty snarl and said "What are you doing? and she hit the ground on her back, head turned away, eyes averted... clearly submitting and letting me know she knew she was wrong wrong wrong. I turned my back and walked away huffing under my breath. She followed behind me head bowed, tail tucked... We resumed playing ball a few minutes later while I continued talking to my HUMAN companion in a normal tone of voice as though nothing had happened... And continued giving Theia commands in a steady voice while she was being a good girl. She never tried to bite my hands again. She's YOUNG and she WILL learn...

I'll tell you that MY BOY here would never do that to me. But I went through some trials with him in his puppy days... I say ONE word here. IT's "WHAT..." and he's on his BACK and he's very clearly a leader of dogs now... but he KNOWS I rule this house. You absolutely MUST exude Quiet Calm control, but be READY to use your big stick (in this case your squirt bottle, your voice,) to shock your boy into listening to you...

When he stops the bad behaviour immediately tell him to do something GOOD... SIT, DOWN etc and the minute his butt hits the floor tell him "GOOD BOY!!! " then walk away and let him cool his jets. YOU ignore him. No talking, babbling, excited extra talking just leave him to follow you. SILENCE means you have CONTROL of YOURSELF. Alpha's are not noisey dogs. They are quiet, stealthy, and calm. BE THAT way. MEAN what you say and DO what you mean. IF he's misbehaving, CRATE him for a time out or seperate him from where he wants to be.

Some dogs are knuckleheads and they will TEST who they deem to be the weakest link in the house. He seems to think YOU are it. YOU happen to be the one that runs the household. So You have to FAKE everything that he understands means strength. Even if you don't FEEL Confident FAKE IT. Even if you don't have a deep voice FAKE IT.

He needs to be exercised. A tired dog doesn't have time to think about being a Moron. But keep in mind that he is also entering his Teenage "I am def and blind" phase of life. I can not recommend highly enough OBEDIENCE classes.

YOU AND HIM should be in OBED. Every week from now until he's at least 2 years old. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Sorry this is so long.... heh

[graniteknls]

Awesome post, Aimee! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) SO many people don't even realize they've let the dog take over (I mean in general, like people in the "pet" obedience classes at our training center).. this is just what would help repair 95% of their relationships with their dogs...

[Patty & Bill]

Am I the only one who can't get that song out of my head each time I read the forum??

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)